No Christmas Nativity Display on Township Property This Year?
The traditional Nativity scene is absent from Woodbridge Town Hall, a year after a complaint from an atheist legal organization was lodged.
There's a Christmas wreath over the main doors to the Woodbridge Municipal Building, and inside, a Christmas tree sparkles with holiday lights.
It's Christmas around Woodbridge, but one display that has traditionally been part of the decoration seems to be missing.
That's the Nativity Scene, a decades-old plywood set of cutouts constructed by employees of the township's Public Works Department, and usually placed in front of town hall as part of its seasonal decorating.
Last year, the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FRFF) got wind of the religious display on township property and sent a letter to municipal officials, saying that the nativity was a violation of the separation of church and state.
The display, usually set up on the corner of Main Street and Rahway Avenue, placed "the imprimatur of the government behind the Christian religious doctrine," said FRFF attorney Patrick Elliott last year after a Woodbridge resident had made a complaint about the manger scene.
Elliott sent several letters to township officials, citing the various legal reasons as to why such a display was, in their view, illegal and unconstitutional.
Elliott said he never received a reply from the township administration. Mayor John McCormac did not return repeated phone calls for this story.
"We have no problem with general holiday decorations. A Nativity scene is a religious display, and thus, it's unconsitutional on public property," Elliott said.
In New Jersey, one court held that it's legally permissible to put up a manager scene if there are artifacts from other religions, such as a Jewish Menorah, as part of the display, or if non-religious elements, such as Santa Claus figures, are included.
Elliott thought that adding non-religious decorations to make the Nativity legal in a court's eyes was "absurd," and that it wasn't necessary a clear legal go-ahead to put the Christian scene on public property.
In Ellwood City, Penn., Elliott said there was an ongoing dispute with a Nativity scene on government-owned property. Eventually, the town fathers decided to keep it off municipal property.
"A local business owner wasn't too happy about that, so he put up the display on his land," Elliott said. "That's fine for a private individual to do it."
St. James Church is on Amboy Avenue, at the opposite end of Main Street from Town Hall. A prominent display of the Christ child's birth in a creche has always been on display there, along with a "Keep Christ in Christmas" sign.
Elliott said he's pleased that Woodbridge officials have apparently decided to eliminate the Nativity scene from their holiday decorating.
"Our goal is to be informative and have these issues worked out without the need for litigation," Elliott said.
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GeoJf3
8:08 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
This is getting sickening.
Jojo
8:21 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
And we continue to cater the the .001% pieces of sh!t who have nothing better to do than complain. What the township SHOULD now do is put a sign up saying that the nativity scene was taken down because it hurts (enter whiny bitch's name here) feelings.
greg christian
5:13 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
this is crazy it should be up. we have rights too
greg christian
Tom Maras
8:26 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
If Mr. Elliott deserves any KUDOS, it is because he has shown how weak kneed John McCormac and his town council are in the face of this type of challenge to a beloved township tradition. Mac and company can spend $$$$'s galore on legal expense for the messes they make, but can't fight for the town on something so sacred to so many!
If a NJ court has held "that it's legally permissible to put up a manager scene if there are artifacts from other religions, such as a Jewish Menorah, as part of the display, or if non-religious elements, such as Santa Claus figures, are included", then why can't Mac and company do it at 1 Main St.; for the kids, the seniors and for the spirit of generations to come!
NotInKansasAnymore
9:07 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
Can we put the display up at one of the mayors golf courses?
Roman
8:57 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
I believe it should be put to a vote. If the majority of us decide to keep the Nativity scene up, then it should stay up. It's a shame that we would even have to vote on this subject but its been a tradition most ppl in Woodbridge love. Just a thought!
Tom Maras
10:54 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
@Roman. Great suggestion. Ask the town council to have an open vote on the question.
Joanne Best
9:16 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
Why is a group from Wisconsin being allowed to strong arm a NJ Mayor and interfere in our Christmas traditions? And why is the Mayor folding? I hope people remember this come the next election day when this Mayor runs again.
If they are so concerned about the Constitution being adhered to they need to look at the White House first, where the Constitution is being ignored on a daily basis
I have spoken
1:44 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Chicken Little Mac is a coward and doesn't deserve the honor of being the Mayor of Woodbridge. When is the Taxpayers/Voters going to wise up and eradicate this cancer of a man?
Janelle
9:27 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
There is supposed to be separation of church and government. Sorry, but those are the rules. If the display was a Mennorah, you would all be out complaining about that! Stop whining....
Chris Stanley
9:58 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
Amen, I mean, hurrah to that Nancy! The gov't has no reason to be involved in anything spiritual or religious. It's a shame the taxpayers are footing the bill for the township's Public Works Department employees to install and maintain these decorations.
Tom, the answer is that the U.S. Constitution trumps all.
Tom Maras
10:59 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
@NancyU. Why? Do you believe "all" in the township are anti-semitic?
Do you call those decorated trees Christmas trees or Holiday trees?
And yah, since it is Hanukkah, there should be Menorah at town hall.
Happy Hanukkah and Merry Christmas!
Deborah Bell
12:53 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
If I recall correctly, there was a menorah outside the front of the municipal building (by the main entrance) last year. I don't remember seeing it this year.
Thomas Scarano
3:50 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
The constitution does not contain the words separation of church and state..
rfm
10:06 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
I could care less in a Mennorah was put up on public property. A religious display of any sort doesn't offend my sensibilities. Maybe I was just taught to be more tolerant and respectful of other peoples religious beliefs.
ree v
10:26 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
tell me... does this athiest have and/or use any money that says "IN GOD WE TRUST"... lol... first, i can't believe that someone actually complained about it and second, for the mayor to actually comply with it is just unreal... what's next? the church has to be re-located because its too close to town hall and that bothers him too? im no religious fanatic but, i do believe in GOD and this really p@#*!es me off!
Jennifer Morgan
11:05 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. There are so many of us who love and respect the cache. Why are we giving in to the minority?
Tom Maras
11:22 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
As McCormac and his town council. You can contact all with one by e-mail. If you are lucky enough to get a real response, please post it.
Merry Christmas
Chris Stanley
2:03 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Why? Because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
c. darling
11:22 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH US??? FIRST WE TAKE GOD OUT OF OUR SCHOOLS, NOW WE TAKE JESUS OUT OF CHRISTmas?? OUR CHILDREN DON'T KNOW THE MEANING OF CHRISTmas ANYMORE. MAYBE THIS WHY WE ARE HAVING SO MNY PROBLEMS IN OUR STATE. WE HAVE NOBODY TO FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS AS PEOPLE ANYMORE. WE ARE JUST LAWS ON PAPER. I AM REALLY DISGUSTED!!!!
slyfox1961
11:49 am on Monday, December 10, 2012
What's amazing is that in order to not offend the 5% or so of these creeps with religion, the 95% of us have to be offended by NOT having Christmas. Political correctness run amok.
Elmer Bigelow
12:04 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
When God was giving out brains they thought that he said trains so they all got on board. This is how atheism started and the reason why they are always going around in a circle. RIP AH'S
Chris Stanley
2:04 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Elmer,
We are all born atheists.
John
6:46 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Chris- absolutely right. Children are brainwashed into believing there is a God, then the rest of their life (if they choose to continue to believe in fairy tales) they allow religion to control their thinking, asking them to blindly believe what can easily be refuted with SCIENCE.
You don't need religion to raise a well- adjusted, virtuous child.
BobDee
1:14 am on Tuesday, December 11, 2012
@John, You have my attention,,,,start refuting? I'll watch for your reply.
Beth
1:04 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
I would like to know who did this, so I can drive by their house and complain about whatever they put on their front lawn and demand they remove it, because I simply find it offensive. I am by no means a religious person, but the Christmas, (Holiday Season whatever you wanna call it,) no longer holds meaning of togetherness, and joy. It is instead inundated with sales, chaos, and people watching what they say.
To the person who complained, does a simple nativity scene bother you so much, that you have to call for outside help? You have to call the religion police to come out and handle your problems? It really is sad, and every year this will continue. Every year, there will be a news article about how local towns must remove any semblance of holiday spirit. Instead of focusing on such trivial things, go donate your time to people in need, if you have what seems to be so much time on your precious hands.
slyfox1961
1:35 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
@Beth: Unfortunately, you can't complain about what they have on their lawn because it is private property. That is the reason these idiots can get away with having towns remove these type of displays, because they are on public property. I feel your frustration, and share it. What needs to be done is to have some private property owner in a very noticable area allow a VERY LARGE Christmas display be setupp on their property. There is nothing that can be done logally to have it removed. Another option would be for every citizen who feels strongly about this isse to display their own Christmas display on their private property. Everyoen needs ot keep Christmas alive in their own small way. That is the way to defeat them.
Deborah Bell
1:57 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
There actually is a way to keep the Nativity display up, and that's to include other non-Christian decorations (such as a menorah, a Santa Claus, that sort of thing) in with the same display.
Other NJ towns have had similar contests and have preserved their Nativity displays by including non-Christian and non-religious decorations in with them so it doesn't seem to be a promulgation or endorsement of one specific religion.
It's unclear why the township didn't choose to do that. It seems like a simple remedy.
Chris Stanley
2:05 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
The answer is very clear. $$$
Janelle
2:11 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
I did not say anyone was anti-Semetic. What I am trying to convey is that government facilities cannot display religious decorations....that is the way the law is written. Stop blaming the Mayor for something that is not in his control. I personally have no reason to dislike the display, but I don't find the need to go on and on about something that is out of his control.
Katy Lake
2:24 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Did you even read the article? They CAN display religious scenes if they mix in stuff from other religions or secular objects. Why do you keep sayingit was "out of the mayor's control" when other towns managed to keep their displays up by mixing in other objects? Did the mayor even try to do that? With all the lawyers we pay for, not one of them could figure this out by seeing what other nj towns in similar situations did?
slyfox1961
3:25 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
@katy lake and Deb Bell: according to the article:
In New Jersey, one court held that it's legally permissible to put up a manager scene if there are artifacts from other religions, such as a Jewish Menorah, as part of the display, or if non-religious elements, such as Santa Claus figures, are included.
Elliott thought that adding non-religious decorations to make the Nativity legal in a court's eyes was "absurd," and that it wasn't necessary a clear legal go-ahead to put the Christian scene on public property.
It would seem that it has not been entirely decided in the Higher Courts that inclusion of "other" religious symbols would make it acceptable. The issue is ANY religious symbol on public land is NOT a separation of church and state. Towns are deciding that they don't want to be the ones to spend the money to fight that battle.
Deborah Bell
4:36 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Slyfox, you can relax now. Looks like someone at Town Hall decided it was worth the fight. The Nativity is now UP, with Santa Claus, a Christmas Tree, and a Happy Kwanzaa sign.
slyfox1961
7:41 am on Tuesday, December 11, 2012
@Deb Bell: looks like the media attention yuo brought ot he issue has payed off. Good work. My nativity scene will be proudly displayed.
Rosie L.
6:00 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
THANK GOD, AMEN!!!
JanD
6:24 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
FWIW, our country was founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs. Our forefathers had no problem with God. What they did have a problem with is the government telling people what to believe and how to practice. The fact that an athiest has more rights than me offends me.
Tom Maras
6:28 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
@ Ms. Bell What, no menorah for Hanukkah!
Seriously, thank you and all the good fills of this town for making Mac and company, at least on this issue, bend to the will of the people!
Wow, has a precedent been set
Mr. C
7:42 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
Nice to see that the squeaky wheel did not win this one. Maybe if "we the people" would stand up and be counted more often and be less concerned about being politically correct, the majority wouldn't have to be tip toeing around every issue that offends a minute segment of the populus. Thank GOD calmer heads prevailed . Keep CHRIST in CHRISTmas.That's really what it's all about.
Carolyn Titz
10:43 pm on Monday, December 10, 2012
I want to find out how I can get the Nativity Scene so I can display it on my front lawn with a sign that says " Donated by Woodbridge Town Hall". What about our religious rights as Catholics?
BobDee
1:16 am on Tuesday, December 11, 2012
"after a Woodbridge resident had made a complaint about the manger scene"
lol, one resident?? o_0
Tom Maras
8:55 am on Tuesday, December 11, 2012
OMG
@ Chris Stanley. Perhaps, saying all humans are born both ignorant and innocent would be more correct. In this country people (at least most) lose their ignorance through education. Depending on the education they receive,(including parental guidance) and how they apply it, they are able to make informed choices. The loss of innocence is a subject for another time.
Having lived and worked in the Middle East, it is possible to say that many in that part of the world do not enjoy the choices, especially religious choices, we, in this great nation, take for granted. There, one had better profess a believe in God, in a specific manner, or suffer the consequences.
@ John. Can only wonder how you would like living in a “godless society”? There is an old saying among most, but not all, war veterans: There are no atheists in foxholes! In that connection, you may find the following enlightening: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-hutson/no-atheists-in-foxholes-research_b_1508326.html
God Bless America! Happy Hanukkah and Merry Christmas to all people of faith and goodwill!